Some speculate that it held top-secret cargo or perhaps even a high-ranking individual whose identity they couldnt risk being exposed. Looks about a hundred feet on top, he said. After impact, both planes began to fall toward earth. Pilots today are also taught that as soon as any crewmember calls for a go-around, the pilot flying must comply immediately, regardless of rank. Clicks to Website: 205 . Like many crashes in its day, Allegheny Airlines flight 485 was treated as another drop in the bucket, an article on the deaths of 28 people on a Connecticut beach barely squeezing onto the bottom of the front page of the New York Times. google street. As First Officer James Walker recovered in hospital, he provided National Transportation Safety Board investigators with a unique window into his thoughts during those critical moments. If the conditions had been good, they could have arrived in New London ten minutes early but it was not to be. Cindy Adkins and Sharon Matney from Spiritual Journey assisted on what the team termed to be an emergency house clearing. However, the Federal Aviation Administration had a policy of granting exemptions to this rule on aircraft with fewer than 51 passenger seats if the airline could show there would be no impact on operations or safety. But his captain still hadnt leveled off. But a middle-of-the-night recovery operation would have been a significant effort, involving a large crew, lots of lighting and more hours of labor than could have been squeezed into the night. The unidentified girl had been badly beaten and . With his wing flaps lowered and wheels-up, Major Dotson perfectly executed a downstream water landing. At this point, all thats likely to remain of the largely aluminum aircraft are perhaps its steel engines and landing gear. At a speed of 196 kilometers per hour, flight 485 slammed into a row of three beach cottages on the shore of Long Island Sound, leveling the buildings and ripping off both wings. The airline no doubt saved a lot of money by cutting the number of flight attendants, but in this case it proved disastrous. Cindy and Sharon saw a young man looking into the window of the home from the back yard. The U.S. Air Force sold the salvage rights to a local seaplane pilot for $10. Shortly thereafter, he heard two separate and distinct sounds of impact. On Monday, September 25, 1978, San Diego was overcome by catastrophe. Controllers directed the pilot to Runway 5L, but due to the low cloud ceiling and poor visibility, Teagarden was at 3,100 feet as he passed over the runway and he attempted to land on Runway 32 instead. During the takeoff roll on runway 26, the electrical system failed. He lost sight of the aircraft at 50 ft of altitude because of the poor visibility. Just like that, a story was born. The number of reasons this crash would not happen today are too numerous to list, and even if it did happen, improved crashworthiness and flammability requirements, emergency exit lighting, and other innovations would probably ensure the survival of most or all of the passengers. Somehow one of the plane's engines managed to come away from the wing resulting in severe damage to the . Shortly after the aircraft disappeared from his view, he heard the sound of an emergency locator transmitter on 121.5 MHz. From there, the mystery deepens. In the midst of the Cold War, there were rumors that the plane had been carrying a nuclear bomb, a recovered UFO or secret passengers; stories persisted that the military had secretly raised the plane in the middle of the night. All rights reserved. The answer to this seems to be that there's an edited version of "Sole Survivor" with the better known actors and their sub-plot removed and a changed ending which omits the fate of the remaining ghost, whose bones are hidden under the plane. In 1948, a plane crashed in Los Gatos Canyon near Coalinga, killing 28 laborers getting sent back to Mexico. All 16 occupants were evacuated safely while the aircraft was damaged beyond repair. The NTSB felt that it was likely such a policy would encourage risky behavior. The Clarksburg Tower local controller said that he saw Flight 561 taxi to runway 21, and he cleared the flight for takeoff. These guys sound so stupidlike if Im a ghost.. Im gonna be so freaking angry at these guys for asking me stupid questions.. Like why would Elrod even answer you. Allegheny Airlines, Inc., Flight 604, a Convair 340/440, N8415H, crashed 5 miles east-northeast of the Williamsport-Lycoming County Airport, Montoursville, Pennsylvania, on July 23, 1965. The aircraft crashed during daylight hours at an elevation of 1,203 ft ms1. Body parts and debris found in Baltic Sea after "ghost plane" crashes with prominent businessman, 3 others on board September 6, 2022 / 1:10 PM / CBS/AP Human remains and debris have been. Today a parking lot stands on the site. Your email address will not be published. At 11:42, Flight 401 smashed into the Everglades at 225 miles per hour. The aircraft was on the ground for about 1 hr 14 min at Benedum Airport. Just the day before, 50 people had died in a collision between a US Marine Corps fighter jet and a Hughes Airwest DC-9. The scene brought back horrifying memories of the Allegheny Airlines crash of June 1971. The. [3], The National Transportation Safety Board released the following probable cause in a report adopted July 15, 1970:[1]. Let me just say i have heard alot of things about crash sites from reputable people. A private jet disappeared of the coast of Latvia with seemingly no pilot in the cockpit is feared to have crashed into the Baltic Sea, killing all four people believed to be on board. Little did he know that locally heavier fog over the water had reduced visibility to practically nil, baiting him into descending much lower than he had expected. The cause of the crash, as revealed in the Air Forces January 1988 final report, was a defective gear in the accessory gearbox. [1] In the cabin, 27-year-old stewardess Judith Manning had suffered severe fractures to her ribs, clavicle, and spine, incapacitating her the 28 passengers were on their own. DETROIT - It's one of the worst aviation disasters in U.S. history. The Clarksburg approach controller said that he saw Flight 561 as it turned to line up for takeoff on runway 21. The story of the crash would also feature a mounting series of poor decisions, taken under pressure to complete a flight in bad weather, along with a series of detrimental company policies which contributed to both the accident and the unnecessary deaths of 27 of the passengers and crew, who survived the initial impact only to perish in the inferno. Murray avoided contact, but he was quickly enveloped in the resulting fireball. There are places that are filled with activity. He suffered third-degree burns over 95 percent of his body. By Gustavo Arellano Columnist. He watched the aircraft through binoculars and saw nothing abnormal as the takeoff roll began. The deadliest crash was Allegheny Flight 485 in 1971. The parents of Chris Evans told an Indianapolis Star reporter that they had gotten a phone call from their son that morning and were sure it happened after the crash. So what went so tragically wrong? If they couldnt see the runway, they needed to level off. The hobbled missile now hit the berm like an Evel Knievel ramp, rocketing 25 feet through the air before crashing into the front of the Ramada Inn. Washington DC Harrisburg Bradford Erie Detroit. The Crash Of Allegheny Airlines Flight 371. And Goldberg? The jet fuel on board ignited on impact, causing a massive fireball that engulfed the entire front of the hotel up to the fourth floor. The . As it was a war that filled the sky with planes and showed how bigger and better planes were revolutionizing modern warfare, it is not too surprising that people would continue to report seeing and hearing planes . According to other witnesses, the ground roll appeared normal. "I thought the church was being bombed," Doris McClain, 27, told The Times. The captain's intentional descent below the prescribed minimum descent altitude under adverse weather conditions without adequate forward visibility or the crew's sighting of the runway environment. Is this place really haunted? The control tower chief observed Flight 561 during takeoff. By Desiree Kocis Published March 23, 2022 Save Article A B-25 similar to the aircraft that crash-landed in the shallow waters of the Monongahela River near Pittsburgh, only to disappear without a trace. On Tuesday morning, October 20, 1987 35-year-old Major Bruce L. Teagarden flew his US Air Force A-7D-4-CV Corsair II, serial 69-6207 airplane over the city of Indianapolis. Another person suffered severe burns and died a week later. Shortly after, folks reported white lights moving around in the crash site. An Allegheny Airlines DC-9 and a Forth Corporation Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee registered N7374J collided in flight approximately 4 miles northwest of Fairland, Indiana, at approximately 1529 e.d.t., September 9, 1969. Having spoken to dispatch, the flight attendant, and the ground agent, the pilots started the engines and pushed back from the gate at 9:33. The airport had even extended the runway to ensure it was long enough to accommodate the use of the ILS, but the city of East Haven had managed to secure a state court injunction which forbid the airport from actually using the extra runway length, possibly due to noise concerns by nearby residents, although the exact reason is not stated in archival materials. The witness heard no unusual engine noises from the aircraft. In reality, this wasnt true: 6,000 pounds of fuel would be legally required, but they only had 5,769 pounds in the tanks. Tell Us About Your Experience(s) at Allegheny Airlines Flight 853 Crash Site. Upon reaching 610 feet, they were still in clear air on top of the cloud layer, and it would have been evident that the runway was not there to be seen. In fact, visibility at New Haven was 1 miles (2.8 kilometers) laterally with an indefinite cloud ceiling at 200 feet, decreasing to 100, much like in New London, and their chances of sighting the runway before reaching the MDA were virtually nil. USAir Flight 427 Air Crash Disaster Marks 25th Anniversary - Pittsburgh, PA - The plane went nose-first into a Beaver County ravine on Sept. 8, 1994, killing 132 people. But Captain Eastridge never acknowledged the rule, and he continued with his original time-saving plan, requesting a right turn at Pond Point and a straight-in approach to runway 2. Here are some of the others. By the 1970s, Allegheny Airlines had over 40 CV-580s in its fleet, which could be seen at regional airports all over the Northeast. 1969 B-52 Crash. Contact Al directly at Huntvault@aol.com or become a friend on Facebook. After leaving the property and researching the incident, they learned of 30-year-old assistant sales director Beth Louise Goldberg; a victim of the Ramada Inn plane crash. Eastridge was said to be a competent pilot, but strict: as Walker would later tell the National Transportation Safety Board, He was the commander of that airplane and you knew it.. For those wanting only a short walk, you may drive up Brush Mountain, but be prepared for . At 500 feet, the aircraft made a slight right turn towards the Park Fletcher complex. Nevertheless, the policy was indicative of a company culture which perhaps placed too much value on completing the mission on time. Tim, who has a well-documented personal connection to another tragic plane crash (Allegheny Airlines Flight 853 in Fairland) realized these disjointed spirits were not connected to the house; they were connected to the plane crash. The aircraft, on the other hand, was 15 feet high. In 1969, a plane crash killed 83 people. up." The plane penetrated 20 feet into the sheer wall of a towering canyon butte, annihilating the aircraft and 58 passengers and crew members. She. Tim encountered the confused spirit of a young female who was badly burnt. When asked whether he had considered taking control of the plane and executing a go-around, he acknowledged, There was a thought in my mind. However, he feared that if he attempted to grab the controls, Captain Eastridge would fight back. The 37-year-old salesman watched the plane slide on its belly past him pushing cars out of the way as it passed before crashing through the lobby entrance. The aircraft came to rest inverted. Countless Haunt Hunters have been arrested, ticketed, and reprimanded by the authorities for trespassing. [1], Allegheny Airlines Flight 853 was a regularly scheduled flight departing Boston for Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis. Captain Eastridge had already been warned of abysmal weather across the entire region, with extensive ground fog, low cloud ceilings, and scattered thunderstorms reported from Washington to Boston. Oh, this is low, Walker said, getting nervous now. An Unsolved Mystery In the 14 days following the crash, the U.S. Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers led search efforts to recover the roughly 15 foot-high, 13-ton bomber. Al Hunter is the author of the Haunted Indianapolis and co-author of the Haunted Irvington and Indiana National Road book series. Looking back 50 years later, the final report seems to grasp at several fundamental truths recognized in the subsequent decades, while falling just short of endorsing them a fascinating glimpse into the nascent understanding of human factors which defined the period. At ten miles from the airport Flight 737 asked for clearance to make its instrument approach to runway 14 instead of runway 32. Fifteen people perished in the cramped tail section, jammed against one another in utter darkness and intense heat as they fought to open a door that seemingly wouldnt budge. In command of all four legs would be 39-year-old Captain David Gordon Eastridge and 34-year-old First Officer James Walker, who had about 12,000 and 4,000 hours of experience respectively. Of the thousands of people buried in Allegheny, ranging from film stars like Lillian . The aircraft was destroyed by fire. Since his reply was negative, the approach controller closed the airport and activated the airport emergency plan. Gulf of Mexico crash. Shortly after takeoff smoke and fire were observed coming from the right engine and at approximately 1505:30 the captain advised "Six oh four is coming back in, we've got the right engine feathered. The crash occurred moments later on the crest of a ridge approximately 600 feet above the airport elevation. Sadly, they didnt make it. He thought the aircraft was rotated about 1,900 ft down the runway and the liftoff appeared to him to be normal. Allegheny Plane drives off taxiway at Pittsburgh International Airport, everyone off plane safely Jacob Tierney | Wednesday, Feb. 10, 2021 8:59 p.m. Jennifer Tomazic/WPXI A Delta plane. That day, Allegheny Airlines Flight 853, a DC-9 on its way to Indianapolis. The initial point of impact was at the top front right section of the DC-9's vertical stabilizer, just underneath the horizontal stabilizer. A B-52 had crashed shortly after takeoff, killing everyone on board and, because it was fully loaded with hundreds of thousands of pounds of fuel, creating a . Thereafter the flight returned to Benedum Airport and landed at 1146. In the background, someone yelled, "Up . Allegheny Airlines Flight 977 - On the foggy night of December 12, 1976, a commuter plane flying from Atlantic City to Cape May crashed short of the Cape May Airport. A plane accident killed 83 people back in 1969. Sadly, within 10 minutes of their destination, the plane inexplicably malfunctioned and plummeted to the ground at a speed approaching 500 kilometers per hour (300 mph). The Ramada Airport hotel plane crash. At the scene of the accident, body parts were scattered around and had to be buried over. In a better world, First Officer Walker would have been granted the confidence to say this isnt safe, taking the controls and steering the plane away from its fiery end in the nick of time. Both aircraft were destroyed by the collision and ground impact. Founded in 2011, IndianaHauntedHouses.com is a simple and unique online haunted event & attraction resource created to make it easy for locals to find Haunted House, Spook Walk, Corn Maze, and other Halloween Attractions in their local area. All rights reserved. While some modern investigators continue to search for the plane in hopes of finding even the smallest fragment, so far, even all the modern bells and whistles are no match for the ever-elusive Ghost Bomber of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Allegheny Airlines Flight 737 was a scheduled passenger flight from Washington, DC, to Detroit, MI, with en route stops at Harrisburg, Bradford, and Erie, PA. A four engine B-29 came down on Bleaklow Moor, Derbyshire, on 3 November 1948, killing all 13 crew. Flight 561 was rescheduled as a passenger flight from Benedum Airport to National Airport, Washington, D.C. The reverse thrust system failed to work so the aircraft was unable to stop within the remaining distance and overran. As First Officer Walker configured the plane for landing, Eastridge turned straight to the north and lined up with the runway, relying on the signal from the VOR beacon, since the airport was still shrouded in fog. Were right over the water, he said. The airplane cut a swath through the trees and impacted the ground at a point 800 feet from the initial tree contact. On October 25, 1999, a Learjet 35, registration N47BA, [7] operated by Sunjet Aviation of Sanford, Florida, departed Orlando International Airport ( IATA: MCO, ICAO: KMCO) at 13:19 UTC (09:19 EDT) on a two-day . However, a horrific plane crash also occurred right here - and it's one of the worst plane crashes in U.S. history. Dawn Shelly Martin was the front desk clerk. A salesman had stopped at the hotel in search of a pay phone. The bank branch building damaged by the plane is still standing but has since been converted into a hospice. Three occupants survived while 28 others were killed. LONDON, Ind. The plane had totally destroyed three cottages, a bath house, and several outbuildings, setting fire to all of them. Boston - Baltimore - Cincinnati - Indianapolis - Saint-Louis. Allegheny Airlines Flight 853 was a regularly scheduled flight departing Boston for Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis. There were 22 passengers and a crew of 3 on board. The doomed flight was the worst air crash in Greek history, and became known as a "ghost flight". Failure of the landing gear, main gear-shock absorbing, assy, struts, attachments, etc. All 132 people onboard died on impact. Indianapolis Airport crash trucks, which had been following the plane from runway to runway, arrived on the scene a minute after impact and immediately started to use foam to extinguish the fire, which was under control within four minutes. Even so, given that four of his colleagues had recently died doing exactly what he was doing, the NTSB struggled to explain Captain Eastridges decision to descend below the MDA. This week, I found an old 1960s Era brochure from the Indianapolis Airport Hotel. In the mid-1950s, a World War II-era bomber, now dubbed the Ghost Bomber, sank into a small, sleepy Pittsburgh river and vanished without a trace. They noted that one of the wings appeared to be missing and watched as it was loaded onto a flatbed truck and hauled away. From there, the mystery deepens. More likely is that the plane somehow became embedded in the rivers bottom, was hidden away by sediment, and corroded away over the years. On August 16, 1987, Northwest Flight 255 crashed shortly after taking off from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, killing 156 . According to statistics from the National Safety Council, you have a 1 in 114 chance of meeting your maker in a car crash and a 1 in 9,821 chance of dying in a plane crash. 1 of 5 An Allegheny Airlines plane with 31 people aboard made a low approach to Tweed New Haven Airport runway and crashed killing 28 people. Upon landing at Parkersburg Airport, West Virginia, the crew encountered technical problems with the right main gear. After going to the Eastern 401 site in Miami I am a believer. ROSELAWN, Ind. At 9:17 the pilot requested instrument clearance at Williamsport. Not very good, is it? said Walker. One man died when his small plane crashed Saturday near Kingman, local and federal officials said. Twenty-one hundred fifty-one hundred, nine hundred, we got enough if we dont run into any delays, he said, adding up the fuel quantity required to reach Philadelphia. Aircraft flight hours:26266. The persons involved stated that it was performed between 1220 and 1235. Providence Windsor Locks Philadelphia Nashville Memphis. . HauntedPlaces.org makes no claims that any of the statements posted here are factually accurate. One first officer did point out that everyone has a strong sense of survival, and that in a life or death scenario he might take control, but that he wouldnt know for sure unless placed in such a situation. What were another 28 bodies to add to the pile? . Both pilots and 9 passengers were killed while 17 other occupants were injured. On May 28, 1971, Audie Murphy, the most decorated US soldier in World War II, died in an airplane crash on the slopes of Brush Mountain, near New Castle, VA. Three years later, the Veterans of Foreign Wars placed a stone monument near the site of the crash. Their hopes were dashed when they realized the call had been made just moments before the disaster. Allegheny 853 - 50th Anniversary Remembrance 9 September 2019 The 50th anniversary of the crash has now passed, and a remembrance service was held at the crash site. It was likely that he had violated both these rules many times, not just on the accident flight. He also radioed the same weather to Flight 561 when it was taxiing for takeoff. I Googled it and realized that the crash took place 26 years ago this week. The controller then reported that the wind was blowing at 5 knots out of the south, meaning that they would have a tailwind if they landed on runway 2. This time, Captain Eastridge didnt stop at 610 feet. After the last roll, the right wingtip struck the ground and impact followed shortly thereafter. He must have seriously considered skipping the stop in New London and proceeding straight to New Haven, but before doing so, he came up with one last idea: he would request a contact approach. During a contact approach, a crew flying on an IFR flight plan may deviate from the instrument approach procedure upon making contact with the ground, then proceed to the runway visually, as long as they stay away from clouds. The Board was unable to determine what motivated the captain to disregard prescribed operating procedures and altitude restrictions, the NTSB wrote, and finds it difficult to reconcile the actions he exhibited during the conduct of this flight.. This procedure requires at least one mile of lateral visibility, but because the observed visibility at New London was considerably less than this, the controller denied the crews request for a contact approach. When First Officer Walker told air traffic control that the company was reporting one mile of visibility, the controller relented and cleared them for the approach. Twenty years after the crash, site managers are working to protect the living memorial from old and new threats. Well, first of all, it helps to have a slightly demented mind (like mine). Allegheny Airlines had a large fleet of both jet and turboprop aircraft, among which its greatest workhorse was undoubtedly the 50-passenger Convair CV-580. However, there was plenty of controversy to fuel the local press. The FAA had granted this exemption to eight US airlines between 1970 and 1971, including Allegheny Airlines and its Convair CV-580s. The Board was unable to determine what motivated the captain to disregard prescribed operating procedures and altitude restrictions and finds it difficult to reconcile the actions he exhibited during the conduct of this flight. The aircraft took off on May 10, 2006 from Johannesburg, and during the flight the cabin pressure dropped dramatically causing a drop in temperature. In analyzing the relations between the two pilots, the NTSB did make note of Eastridges reputation as a strict commander who made it clear that he was in charge. He lost sight of the aircraft when it was at an altitude of about 20 ft above the runway. The lengths to which Captain Eastridge went to save time and fuel were beyond what could be considered reasonable: he requested a different runway for takeoff, he cancelled the IFR flight plan, he lied to the dispatcher about how much fuel was on board, and he repeatedly tried to land when conditions were below minimums, all in an effort to get to the destination sooner. of wet snow on all its horizontal surfaces when it left the parking ramp. I was a flight attendant for 3 years. Every week viewers watched Melinda Gordon (Jennifer Love Hewitt) use her ability to see and speak with the dead to help them . Although the home owner was reporting incidents inside the house, the intuitives immediately picked up on activity outside of the house. They made a couple of stopovers, one for an overnight at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma and another for fuel the next day at Selfridge Air National Guard Base in Michigan. Allegheny Airlines Flight 371, on December 1 1959, was headed from Philadelphia to Cleveland, with stops in Harrisburg, Williamsport, Bradford, & Erie. By Desiree Kocis Published March 23, 2022 Save Article. Not knowing the history of the property or its environs, Tim asked the home owner if there was a funeral home or graveyard close by. Informed that a commercial riverboat was about 15 minutes from their position, they were advised to remain with the aircraft. Sep 20, 2013 - Explore Larry Evans's board "Plane Crashes" on Pinterest. Let us know! Serving your community from Downtown East to Greenfield, North to Lawrence & Geist, and South to Beech Grove, New Pal & Southport, Monarch Beverage to Move to Irvington Area, Indiana Senate Bill Advances to Help Seniors Access SNAP Benefits, Silvia Moreno-Garcia to Present the McFadden Lecture March 16, Crowdfunding Opportunity for New Shelbyville Playhouse, Indy Eleven Park Set to Break Ground in May. Family members of the missing arrived on scene and the long, agonizing vigil for news of their loved ones began. Near Shady Acres Park, Fairland, IN, 46126. Twelve others abandoned the queue and tried to make their way back to the front, but the exits had become impossible to see through the choking smoke, and they too succumbed to the toxic fumes. The failure of the right engine is attributed to the failure of the front row master rod and all the associated link rods. Inside the hotel, nine employees died almost instantly. JOHNSTOWN, Pa., Jan. (AP) Eleven persons were killed and six others critically injured tonight when a twinengine Air East turboprop crashed while landing at the ,JohnstownCambria County . At the site of the accident, body parts were scattered around and had to be buried over. He repeatedly tried to warn Captain Eastridge about their low altitude, but Eastridge ignored him, believing that his tactic would be successful despite the first officers concerns. [1], The two aircraft converged at a relative speed of 350mph (300kn; 560km/h). One man climbed out through the left overwing exit, and a woman followed him, ignoring another passenger who could be heard shouting, Try to get to the back!. The crew diverted to Pittsburgh. As they came in over the water, First Officer Walker could see the sea of fog below them, and he didnt like their chances. At 9:10 a.m., Teagardens instrument panel went dark. The CV-580 was a modified version of the older, 1950s-era Convair CV-240, with its original piston engines having been swapped for more powerful Allison turboprop engines, vastly increasing its performance. Their bodies were so badly burned that it would take several days to identify them through dental records. Check out The Big Sky Theory Of Traffic Avoidance.. Ghost planes over Derbyshire have been sighted regularly for years 1997 Howden Moor Incident Shortly after 10 pm on 24 th March 1997, multiple people would report a "small plane" flying low to the ground, [3] which then crashed and exploded somewhere on, or just above the Howden Moors. Seven of those killed were from Indiana, including the captain of the Allegheny jet, 47-year-old James Elrod of Plainfield. Second Officer Don Repo survived the. The Mon, as locals called it, was approximately 20 to 25 feet deep. Peering out the window, Walker too spotted the waters of Long Island Sound. The right main gear lower assembly separated at Parkersburg Airport after a worn lock pin in the upper bearing sheared. Join the discussion of this article on Reddit! Taxiing for takeoff he also radioed the same weather to Flight 561 as it turned line... On its way to Indianapolis after, folks reported white lights moving around in the resulting fireball window Walker. 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Killed were from Indiana, including the Captain of the poor visibility were dashed when they the... Takeoff on runway 26, the policy was indicative of a young female who was badly.. System failed to work so the aircraft was rotated about 1,900 ft down the runway culture which placed! Rules many Times, not just on the other hand, was approximately 20 to feet! Just on the accident, body parts were scattered around and had to be normal tell US about Experience. Mon, as locals called it, was approximately 20 to 25 feet deep sites from reputable people ones.
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